Hey Shayla - Judgement Free Motherhood 😅😭😍
Hey Shayla - Judgement Free Motherhood 😅😭😍
063 - How Nurturing your baby transforms their brain | The Nurture Revolution
Hey Shayla Podcast | Ep: 063 - What "spoiling" your baby does for their brain Nurture Revolution with Dr Greer Kirshenbaum PhD @nurture_neuroscience_parenting
Her book "The Nurture Revolution" https://amzn.to/3TsMw0w
For over 15 years, in neuroscience labs, Dr Greer has studied how genetics and experience shape the brain, nervous system and body to influence lifelong mental and physical health.
Eventually she wanted to bring this powerful knowledge to families, because what she learned has tremendous power to transform lives, minds and health and make the world a better place for future generations.
I found Dr Greer’s work when I was recommended her book “The Nurture Revolution” and now I recommend it to anyone who follows intuitive parenting but is constantly questioning themselves. The information we’re constantly being fed about how to raise our kids often goes agains intuitive and nurture based parenting.What I love most about her book is the neuroscience foundation and her realistic approach.
You can find more content from Dr Greer on her website Website: https://www.nurture-neuroscience.com or on Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/nurture_neuroscience_parenting. Or in her book "The Nurture Revolution" https://amzn.to/3TsMw0w
This episode welcomes Dr. Greer Kirschenbaum, whose insights from "The Nurture Revolution" share the effects nurturing has on a child's brain development. As we unravel the threads of genetics, early experiences, and the pivotal role of parenting support, Dr. Kirschenbaum, a seasoned neuroscientist and doula, provides an incredible guide of practical strategies that affirm your parental instincts and translate into tangible family nurturing practices.
Imagine a parenting approach that not only fosters your child's emotional growth but also strengthens your bond. We delve deep into the art of stress regulation, emotional connection, and the ways we can use our own mature brains to support our little ones during their most overwhelming moments. Dr. Kirschenbaum challenges the concept that children must learn to self-soothe, arguing for a more supportive role in their emotional regulation.
Finally, Dr. Kirschenbaum sheds light on the diversity of infant sleep patterns and the cultural pressures that can clash with a baby's natural needs. We also discuss the considerations and benefits of co-sleeping, always prioritizing safety and family we
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I always bring it back to like a chrysalis. In the side of chrysalis, the caterpillar doesn't just sprout wings, it completely breaks down into goo, into a pile of goo, and then reassembles as a butterfly. We do that. We're almost like broken down into goo, just like our babies, and we're both like growing beside each other, and that's reflected in the brain too.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, my name is Shayla. Welcome to the hey Shayla podcast. I went from full-time travel to full-time new COVID mom and now I'm a mom of two. And holy wow is motherhood and adulting a learning curve. There are so many decisions we need to make and a million ways to do it right. I created this podcast to interview some of my gurus, to share their knowledge and empower you on your journey. Let me be your guinea pig and ask the question. Think everyone else knows here. We're a little hippie. We try to do things as naturally as possible, we're open-minded and we don't take ourselves too seriously, but above all, we support one another and work to find what works. If you're into it, you're our people. Let's get started. Hey guys, welcome back to the hey Shayla podcast.
Speaker 2:Today I'm so excited. I always say I'm so excited, but I'm so excited. Recently I got recommended a book called the Nurture Revolution. This book is so validating If you are a parent who does an intuitive approach, a very nurture-based approach, and it feels hard and society is telling you you're making this harder than it needs to be, like you should just sleep, drain your baby or they need to be more independent. This book validates everything.
Speaker 2:So the author is Dr Greer Kurschbaum and for over 15 years in neuroscience labs she has studied how genetics and experience shape the brain, the nervous system and the body to influence lifelong mental and physical health. That's what the whole book is about, and eventually, obviously she wanted to get this information out of the lab, it into families and so she wrote the book. She does one-on-one counseling. She has a whole Instagram where she talks about all of these things and it's just. The information is invaluable, I think. But what I love most about her book is the neuroscience foundation with her realistic approach. Like she's, like this is what the research shows, but like in real life, this is how you're going to do it. So if you want to find more content from Dr Greer, her website is nurture-neurosciencecom, or she's on Instagram nurture, underscore neuroscience, underscore parenting, or you can read slash, listen to the book the Nurture Revolution.
Speaker 2:Let's get into this interview. I'm so excited. All right, let's start the podcast. I'm so excited to have Dr Greer Kirschenbaum on and thank you so, so much for agreeing to come on and chat with me. When you agreed, I told my husband I was like she said. She said yes, yes, shay, that's really cool. I'm like no, this is so exciting.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I mean, like I said, I am so happy to connect with you, know so many people who the book speaks to and it's such a joy. Totally, that was the whole point. I want to share it, spread the message and, yeah, I'm always so happy to connect.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's what I loved about your book, too, is it was so science-based but you're like but here's how it works in real life. Like this is what I know, but I also know that you don't live textbook and like you gave great examples, which was also so nice to hear. Yeah, for sure, and our, this community like if you my YouTube videos, I'm always like hey, my name is Shayla and we do things kind of granola, kind of hippie, kind of natural, and so, like the community is built around this sort of content. So I know that everyone listening is going to be like thank you for telling us this. So, all right, let's get started. So I always like to start with how did you find yourself here? How did you find yourself during neuroscience and doula and like the combination of things that you do is so interesting and fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much. It's it's honestly just been the flow of my life. I you know the ideas and inspiration for the book. It includes my entire personal life, my academic life, my life as a neuroscientist and then the doula and mother. I was a really high needs baby. It starts with that, it starts with me and then this part I'm actually investigating more and more lately. I've just started.
Speaker 1:I went to the birth APA birth psychology conference and spoke there a few months ago and now I'm, like you know, going deeper into my own birth experience and how that is actually a huge part of us too. There's so much, oh, my gosh, I do feel like I was, yeah, this was you know, yeah, I was born into it, basically Literally, yeah, completely. So I was like, yeah, it was really I was. You know, the part of my birth story I'll just say it because it's been on my mind lately that I have not fully acknowledged was that I was separated from my mom at birth because I had blood sugar issues, I think, and they wanted to monitor me. And now we know all blood, like blood sugar, gets stabilized when moms are on the babies together, so it was totally unnecessary and they brought me to my mom.
Speaker 1:I knew this part but I always dismissed it. I was always like my birth was fast, like when I'm always talks about, it was very quick, I was born very quickly, it was all very fast. So like that's, that's the story I always told myself. But I was blind to this part and this part is really meaningful for the book and the whole. You know motivation.
Speaker 1:I was separated and my mom always told me this part of the story but I blocked it out. The nurse would brought me back to her screaming, completely dysregulated screaming. My mom was in the shower covered in soap and the nurse said to her you have to take your baby. She's been like this for a while, oh, and we can't calm her down, and so my mom had to like take me covered in soap shower, shower and reunite with me.
Speaker 1:And so I think that some of that experience I mean I know that some of that experience is part of this that was so painful as a baby experience I've been able to explore some of that and some birth psychology kind of sessions and I think that is like that's the beginning catalyst. Yeah, I mean for the, for babies. I know what it feels like to be a baby in pain and separated and not have what I needed. I mean, I went on to be really high needs. Like I said, cried a lot, always needed to be sleeping on somebody or touching somebody at least call all the babies I talk to and the only families I work with, and and so I had my mom fully was showed up for that.
Speaker 2:I was breastfed for a long time.
Speaker 1:I bedshared, you know. But we are calm, you have different. You know, combos of high nurture and low nurture practices, right, All mixed in. But my mom always talked about it and she got a lot of her support from Lollechae oh nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know she went to a support group and they were like listen to your baby, you know. And so my mom is like really for it. Yeah, she's on. That was always in my mind Growing up. I always heard about what I was like as a baby and my mom would always talk about how porn it was.
Speaker 2:That she oh, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she was a rebel, like everyone around her were not, was not doing it. She was similar with my brother, who's four years younger than me.
Speaker 2:And I saw her friends criticizing her.
Speaker 2:Oh no, yeah, Cause you were old enough to be able to see. Well, and I'm just imagining, cause you were the first born. I'm just imagining my first born being separated from her and then being in the shower, because even when they hand you the baby, like in your first moments, you're like what? Like this is my child, like, so, like her being super vulnerable in the shower, naked like soapy, and then being handed her baby for the first time and just be like right, yeah, and just oh, wow, yeah, that's a. That's wild from both ends.
Speaker 1:And she had a lot of experience with baby. She's the oldest of five kids, okay, so she wasn't totally born.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she was like a pseudo mom. Yeah, totally, but yeah it was really interesting.
Speaker 1:So you know I've always been attuned to this idea, really got deep into it. Am I undergraduate? I did undergrad in neuroscience, really kind of discovering like what is early life experience? How does that shape us in the in, what does that mean in the brain? Continued that, read, you know, continued. I just loved research, kept going, did a PhD and postdoc and by the end of it I was like we now have so much information about how critical this time is to grow mental health for babies. It wasn't even that, wasn't even well known when I started my neuroscience career. It was also like right time, right place. Yeah, I was sort of tracking that research as it in real time as it came out. I think I like 700 references in my book and like those, all those studies were coming out like over those 15, 20 years where I was like oh, there's a new one, add that to the thing, add that to the thing right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Learning it. And yeah, by the end I was like I don't see any parents know this. It's so important, Everyone has to know this, and so I was like I'm going to go and do that. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing, I came to do that, mom and finally wrote my book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm so glad you did. And I had I just interviewed another PhD who does a lot of lab things and she was like it's all for nothing, literally, unless you can get it out to people. And she said that process is so difficult, like it's like locked behind passwords and paid things and you have to pay to publish and whatever. So I love that. You were like all right, cool, now we know this. Now let's get it out to the world and well, that's it.
Speaker 1:There's no in that system. There's no, like you know, scientists could do it, but they've got what they work 100 hours a week anyway. So some do somehow, somehow some find the time, but but there is, that's not part of the system. Right, science, translation, right and vacation. So yeah, you do have to kind of get out there, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was so, so, so good, and it's all publicly funded.
Speaker 1:That's what it was like. One of the biggest things is like we've all paid for this. It's all through grant, through government grants. Oh right, yeah, yeah, all our dollars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to not be able to easily access the information creates a lot of misinformation that does get to be spread easily.
Speaker 1:Yeah 100% and you know, even if we did have open access to the journals, which there are ways of doing that. Now there's a few places that do that, and also for anyone who's listening, who wants access to research, you can email researchers and they will send you their papers. Oh, one would ever hold that back from someone? Yeah, but but even if you can get them, you also like there's jargon, right? You need a lot of practice or education, right? Even understood, be able to read it Totally Okay.
Speaker 2:So the book is called the nurture revolution. So what is the nurture revolution and what is the nurture approach to parenting? That's a big, loaded question. But general idea of what you found and what you like teach people.
Speaker 1:So you know, the first part of my book is really is explaining the neuroscience of infancy and parenthood, because you know I've already kind of said the infant brain is. I mean, the amount of growth is just tremendous in the infant brain it's creating a million connections per second, sometimes up to two million connections per second at certain times. Like it's really incredible, it's really fast and complicated, and just this beautiful opportunity where we can use what I call nurture you know the concepts and I'll define it more closely to connect those brain areas for babies to grow the foundation of mental health, right, a lot of the emotional brain areas are formed.
Speaker 2:And when you say infancy, you mean zero to three. That's right, zero to three.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is also, you know, not all you know, that's no.
Speaker 2:I'm like after six months they're not an infant anymore.
Speaker 1:That's like my yeah 100% and it is fully three years. Anyone who has a child, you know, can know on an emotional level they are a fully a baby. For those three years I still yeah, so, yeah. So there's just incredible growth in the baby's brain in those first three years and it's a really sensitive time. We don't have access to grow those brain structures so as significantly as we can in those first three years, it's a really tremendous opportunity. And then we have like a mirror and they kind of like mirroring it. The parent's brain growth is also happening in those first three years. Yeah, a lot of the same brain areas, so a lot of the brain areas that grew in our infancy is we get access to remodeling, wow, and so that's where a lot of like you know I talk about. You know you're taking care of your baby. Take care of your inner baby too.
Speaker 1:You know we would never let our own baby be, hopefully not be you know, hungry or thirsty or lonely or, you know, in pain alone, and that goes for us too, right? We need to give ourselves that same loving care as well, and if we do, we can reshape our mental health in care and health as well, right, that's so fascinating.
Speaker 2:Well that's. Is that similar to matrescence, or is that totally different?
Speaker 1:Yep, that's the same process. Yeah, matrescence yeah.
Speaker 2:That melted my brain to learn that again incredibly validating, because you're just like oh, there's a grace period, kind of, where I like get to come into this parenthood and everything is changing and that's supposed to be how it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're supposed to kind of, like you know, our identities change so much like we, like I always bring it back to like a chrysalis. Right, we, like you know, inside a chrysalis the caterpillar doesn't just sprout wings, it completely breaks down into goo, into a pile of goo I didn't know that and then reassembles as a butterfly. What?
Speaker 2:We do that 100%. I was goo, I was definitely goo Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah and we're. We're almost like broken down into goo, just like our baby's, kind of like born like with all this.
Speaker 2:As goo.
Speaker 1:As goo and we're both like growing beside each other, right yeah and I hear that from parents all the time like becoming a mom. Heal has been the biggest part of my personal growth and healing. I feel stronger than ever, more authentic than ever. I have my voice back, you know, or my voice for the first time, and that's reflected in the brain too.
Speaker 2:Totally. I feel like that after like literally three years, but for those first three years that was not You're the goo, you're the goo.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you're just like why is I just remember, like, repeating myself, like I need help, I need help, I need help, I don't know what to do. And you have all this information Like social media is the worst thing for well, I guess, unless you're following like your account, but like most of social media is the because there's conflicting information and there's like information that's like no, you're, you need to let your kid crack whatever. There's just all okay, okay, okay, so yeah that's bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the nurture revolution Like carry on, so yes.
Speaker 1:So the nurture revolution is, you know, both, teaching parents that information in like a really accessible way, just understanding what's going on.
Speaker 1:When we understand it, we can shed so many myths, all that confusion that you just mentioned, right, I have 30 of the biggest ones I talked about a book there, on my social media too, and I think that simplifies life for people.
Speaker 1:They can ditch tons of anxiety questioning themselves, you know, and bring out from places that aren't between them and their baby, right, and like I imagine, like all these kind of things trying to like just get in between moms and babies, and parents and dads and babies, and these myths can kind of just like create a shield around you, to be like I'm going to work with me and my baby, we have this relationship and nothing's going to come in the way, yeah, yeah, so, yeah. So the information part really important, and then the other part is suggesting ways that we can nurture our babies right and to kind of help parents get bring again. It all has to come from inside, right, and just to listen to that voice inside, listen to the intuition inside of being able to show up for our babies, because they communicate, we hear them and they know, when we respond in a nurturing way, we're really building their brain and building our brain.
Speaker 2:It's really good for everybody, and how would you define nurture?
Speaker 1:Yeah, great question. I think the dictionary definition is like you know a relationship where you're caring. You know caring for and showing up for someone, which is true. I also see it as like this really intricate dance between parent and baby, where you know we're emotionally there, physically there and showing up both with communication, you know play. We're showing up when babies are stressed to help them recover from stress and we're showing up to help them with their sleep.
Speaker 2:Those are like kind of the specifics yeah, totally, and a few that I remember from the book are just like when they need to borrow your brain, essentially, and that one is not only validating but also like so good for you to hear, for me at least, because when my kid is just like losing her mind, sometimes I'm also losing my mind and sometimes I just want to be like, okay, you need to just sit there, I need to go somewhere else, like I cannot, I cannot. And then your book comes in my head and I'm like she's not going to be able to do this on her own. I need to lock it up for a minute and I'm like go sit with her so that we can both calm down together, so that I can help her do this, because your book explains that they're like literally not capable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the biggest myth right, that we need to leave kids alone to self sue their self.
Speaker 2:And they're like oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they can't, they really can't. And that's such a good example, right. I remember every time my son would melt. He still melts down. He's five, but as a baby, when he was younger, I would go there too. I would also get in fight or flight. I would also get stressed, of course. It's stressful, happens so many times a day, right, I would always bring myself back to what's going inside, inside, on inside of him, like he's scared. He's so scared, he's so angry right now, he's so uncomfortable right now, and that would help me bring my thinking brain back on and to show up and lend him my brain. Right, it's, you know, when we're in that fight or flight, reactive state work, sort of like what. What are they doing to like?
Speaker 1:why are they doing this and that's what is going on for them right, kind of. As adults we do have a mature brain and we can adopt a lot of skills, a lot of techniques to help regulate ourselves. I have a million in my book, a whole big long chapter on it, and I have workshops and stuff to help people with the practice and stuff, because it's so important they really need it. They really need it. There's no other route to calm for babies. They will get. Their stress response is mounted and their only route to calm is us lending up their armature brains to them. They really need.
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Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I really don't want the message to come across as this is like an intensive mothering suggestion for intensive mothering, where you're like always hovering over your baby, always like watching them like a hawk and not doing anything else. Right, and I actually am happy that I've gotten that feedback from a lot of people that I was so hoping for the book not to feel and the whole message not to feel judgmental or to feel like it has to be intense, right, yeah, but that is how a lot of people will, you know, wonder about it.
Speaker 2:Well, I know, like, as a mom, you're like, okay, I need to nurture them, I need to be with them all the time I need, and like the anxiety just goes and yeah.
Speaker 1:Completely, completely. And I think the important thing is to know babies need this stuff, like they certainly need the stress regulation every time right, and sometimes we can do it with like the whole, like the nurtured empathy piece, the emotional coaching piece. Sometimes we're gonna just be like I'm gonna hold you on my chest and walk around.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like, well, if we don't have a lot of gas in the tank, right, like that's what we can do. They do need us to show up for that, you know, for the connection piece and sleep and you know all the other stuff. They need us, but it doesn't have to be intense, right, it really does not have to be intense. The communication stuff is kind of like connecting a few times throughout the day, right, having a little connection in the morning, have a little connection, you know, in the afternoon and a little in the evening. And, yeah, we can. You know, obviously it's hard to do things for the baby, but we don't have to feel bad if, like, they're playing beside us on the floor, you know doing great, and we're washing dishes or cooking or laundry or anything like that, right, and I actually found out with my son.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I would set up little things like that. I would set up a little like Matt with some new toys by the laundry and you know, get them started and then you know, be close and get it done right. A lot of times we think like they have to be in the other room and like be okay, being independent, and like all that kind of stuff. You don't want to be close, but there's a ways of like doing all of it, you know.
Speaker 2:Well and yeah, and I say that about feeling super like overwhelmed by reading it, but I agree with you In the book you are very much like okay, well, and my favorite example was your example. You're like I am a neuroscientist, I know the benefits of the first few minutes with my baby, and guess what? I didn't get that. And I was like oh, and you were like, and so I knew I had other opportunities to get that and that worked out fine. And I was just like okay, all right. And you did mention like this is not a full day thing. This is not like you are only focusing on your child. This is like that, like make sure you connect with them in the morning. Good morning, I love you, how are you? And then like a little bit in the afternoon and that like just alleviated all the stress and because of course, you want to connect with them but you also need to do other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like get out right, like go to the park, go to the store, you know, take them places, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I talk about being versus doing. They need us to be with them. To be aware with them and, you know, in those states of communication when they're open and receptive to it. But of course there's still lots of doing, Right yeah and that yeah being versus doing.
Speaker 1:That is a part of the piece right Like we're going to be doing a million things to do, but just adding in that connection right Throughout is really, really, really important.
Speaker 2:Yes, so you mentioned nurtured empathy. Can you elaborate on that? Because that also I thought was super interesting. Or I gave a couple of examples, because the examples that you gave in the book again brain melting. I was like, okay, this is so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really really great work based on wonderful research, and so so nurtured empathy I kind of alluded to it before is really getting behind your baby's eyes in those, in all moments, actually the tough ones, but also the joyful ones. I think, yeah, our brains are so attuned to threat, fear, worry, so we always are like thinking about the stress and the hardships.
Speaker 1:Also have to for ourselves as parents, really delight in the good times and pay attention to those, because our brains are always going to be looking for the threat and when something good happens, we may be like, okay, great, something good happened, let's move on.
Speaker 1:But, really we have to be like let's stay in that feeling, Like let's really feel the joy between me and my baby's connection right now, or looking at a new flower that came out of the earth today, or something and same for our babies, Like we need to show up for all of the things, right? So, so nurtured empathy is really getting behind their eyes. It's a, you know. It's different than focusing just on behavior. It's really trying to use, you know, our new skills as a parent. We get, you know, part of matrescence, patrescence. We get increased empathy and theory of mind, the ability to get behind someone else's eyes and see the world from their point of view, and we can do that with our baby. So, you know, let's say, our baby puts a puzzle piece in a thing right, Like something like that. You know, you know, maybe our default might be like I'm so proud of you, Like this is all about me.
Speaker 2:I'm so proud of you. I have a smart baby. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:That comes to all of us, so like no one feels that ashamed for that.
Speaker 1:So there's that piece, but there's also the like what can we get behind the baby's eyes in that moment, like, oh my gosh, I saw you were trying so hard, you like move that around so much, and then you got it in, like that must feel so wonderful, like, how do you feel inside? Does that feel? Are you feeling happy? Are you feeling proud of yourself? I'm so curious, right, yeah, and that will then, you know, just help that baby be seen in that moment and really celebrate it in like a really positive way, connects their brain and the amazing ways we want it to and, you know, gives them that intrinsic joy.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Like I did something hard and I feel good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, instead of, my mom is proud of me. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's like paintings. When Ali brings me a painting, she's three and a half, but she'll just be like look, and I'm like I don't know what that is. I'm like, wow, that is incredible. I see the blue and the what did you draw? And just kind of like describing it. Right, yeah, yes yeah, but it also works with the meltdowns right, so like if they're having a hard time. Can you give an example like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. So it's so important for all of them. So, you know, if there is a meltdown, let's say like I don't know what did my son melt down about this morning. He wanted it's like in between whether he wanted to wear something that was too cold or too hot this morning, and I was like we got to wear the right thing, yeah. So you had a middle meltdown, right. So you know, what would I do in that moment? You know to sort of say like hey, listen, I see you're like really, really upset. I can, like you can, talk about their behavior, like you're like crying and you're like so you know. So, so, upset by this, I totally got it. You really wanted to wear these other things. You know I'm here for you, like I'm wondering, like what's going on, right, and just letting them have the feeling and once they're kind of regulated you can go back and be like you know we're going to wear the right thing we're going to make the right choice and wear the right thing right.
Speaker 1:So you know the secret of it is like wondering what's happening inside, right, like I'm wondering, if you like, are you so disappointed you wanted to wear this other thing, are you like you know? Or maybe the one thing?
Speaker 2:is scratchy and they are just screaming about it and you're like just put it on, this is the one you need to wear. Why are you fighting me on this? And then, once you can like, calm them down and chat, and then they're like this one's scratchy.
Speaker 1:And you're like, oh well, let's cut the tag off, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:But you don't get there until you can like understand, like even with my baby, well, the baby relative, right, but she's like a year and a half, almost two, and I'll open the fridge for something and she just immediately starts crying and I'm like why are you crying, what? Why are we crying? What's happening? And I can tell that she's reaching. She loves olives, so she's reaching for the olives and I'm like, okay, I see you want the olives. I'm going to grab the milk first and then I'll grab your olives diffused.
Speaker 2:Yes, you just have to tell like, you just have to validate their experience of like I see what you want and I'm going to communicate that to you so that you know that I'm here, I'm listening, I am behind your eyes and I'm going to help you. Just, I just have to grab the milk first. So, yeah, that part of the book really kind of hit home for me, because I was like, yeah, this is, yeah, just trying to see it from their perspective instead of yours, because you're late now and now you're arguing with what you need to wear. Just get in the car, let's go. Like you're making me and just like having to slow down and be like oh yeah, I get it. There's a rock in your shoe.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry yeah absolutely, and if you're just focused on behavior, you're not going to learn any of that stuff. Totally yeah, put this on, I'll give you a reward. Catch you things still in it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So I keep bothering them right. You don't put this on in five minutes like you're going to have punishment, yeah, and they're still uncomfortable, like you're not seeing them and understanding and I feel like normally.
Speaker 2:I mean, yes, there'll be times when they do. They're just defiant because they're being defiant, but, like most of the time, there's something like oh, I don't like that one or this rock in the shoe or the scratchy thing, Like there's something else going on instead of them just losing it, or there's a feeling right Like maybe he was melting down because there's something he's worried about doing at school today.
Speaker 1:Mm yeah, totally. There's so many different things that could be happening yeah.
Speaker 2:And unless you slow down to ask and like, get them calm and regulated and then talk about it, you're not going to know. Yeah, that's super interesting. Okay, so the part that I haven't got to the book yet, that I am just dying to, because my, I think my postpartum I had a little bit of postpartum depression, like nothing diagnosed. But once I had my second, I was like, oh, it can feel like this, like I didn't I haven't cried yet Like it was just drastically different. So much of it was around sleep and we did. We coasted that from day one. We did the floor bed, we did all of these things that were like taboo and like I have a social media platform.
Speaker 2:And I was like I, what if I do roll over on my baby? And I have just announced that I coast sleep, like I was so afraid to even like talk about it. Now I'm like, if you need some sleep, here's how you do it, here's the safe way to do it here. And like but I was like, but my baby's not following the schedule. They've been awake for an hour and a half now and they are not. I've been trying to get them to sleep for two hours and they're not following it and like there was so much anxiety that she wasn't sleeping through the night that she wasn't following the wake window.
Speaker 2:So she was all of the information that is like so easy to Google about how much hours my kid needs to be sleeping and whatever that put me in a tailspin. Like I'd go to dinner at my dad's house. Dinner just came out and like sorry guys, we gotta go, it's bedtime, we need to leave right now. And they're like, okay, do you want to go box? And I'm like yeah, that'd be great. Bye, but that's so common, I feel like for first parents because of all the information. So I am so excited to get it into your book, but I do want you to like I want a little preview or a dabble, like what it hurt.
Speaker 1:It's like it's so. It always like I feel it when people have that you know going on because it's so common and so unnecessary. It's like completely officially created. Just hearing you say that Poor bitch, it's all made up. There's like no source of any of that stuff, like I don't even know if you ever You're a scientist.
Speaker 2:You're like show me the article. Yeah, it doesn't come from anywhere.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, you know probably what an average you know some of these wake windows and all these kinds of things, so like what an average baby does. Totally, biology is like on a giant bell curve. Everything has huge variability and there are studies that look at normal baby sleep and it doesn't look like that. Right, it looks like giant again. Variability in number of naps, length of naps, time of naps, same with bedtime and wake ups and through the night and all this kind of stuff. Right, it's huge variability.
Speaker 2:The studies show tons of variability. Oh, oh, oh Are you kidding me. Okay, all right, keep going Like that makes me wanna cry. That that is cause when your baby doesn't stick to what is recommended. You're like what am I doing wrong? You don't really question your baby. You're like what mistake am I making?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. It is a full out obsession created by an industry. They're telling you you have a problem and you have to pay me for this. They have this solution right. It's not ethical and I don't think anyone who's in it has those intentions Totally. Are also given that information. They truly believe they're helping moms and babies.
Speaker 2:And they, most of the time, are cause, they can usually get the results they want.
Speaker 1:Yep, Yep. Sometimes not all the time, yeah, but yes. So firstly, to say, this obsession with infant sleep like can totally take over someone's life, completely be the whole root cause of postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression. And when I work with people where they read into my book or I have a sleep workshop coming up, just I'm so excited for that because finally I can say it all yeah In one place. People it's gone, their anxiety, depression are gone. In the second, they're like, oh, that's all. Like I knew all along, like what you know, that this was all what my baby needed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what did you? What?
Speaker 2:have you found with, like nurtured sleep, or what does that even mean? Yeah, I love, I love to expand. So yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing to say as well is over 90% of the world does not watch their baby sleep, because babies know how to sleep. No, they slept in your womb. They also know how to birth right. They also know a lot of things, right. They know how to communicate. They know all these things that most you know, western societies have just been like they're blobs, like they don't, they don't know anything, they're not aware. They're just like blobs and maybe, maybe there'll be a person one day and like that'll give them respect and human, but not when they're a baby, so nurtured.
Speaker 1:Sleep really is so basic to me. I know it's like very hard in like this world of like all the confusion. It's when babies are tired, offering them an opportunity to sleep. When they want to wake up from that sleep, they wake up and that just continues. Okay, and they need help, right, they need help to fall asleep. You know leaving them alone to fall asleep is not working with their biology. They need, they need that input, they need to borrow our brains to fall asleep. Some babies are born with, you know, lower temperaments of stress and they, they. I have seen a couple of babies who can be put down awake and they kind of are fine to, just like you know, suck their thumb or rub their head around and fall asleep.
Speaker 2:Because it's a bell curve, you're going to have those, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:The majority of babies I see, and I know I see a sample, a specific sample of babies who are probably on the higher end of needs need feeding to sleep, rocking to sleep, cuddling to sleep, sometimes driving in the car to sleep, right Like movement to sleep.
Speaker 1:So you know well that's a huge part of nurtured sleep is accompanying your baby and child to sleep. Older children will start to ask for it when they have words, so certainly younger babies want it and they also ask us with communication. So you know helping them to fall asleep, sleeping close, is a big part of nurtured sleep. Our brains stay connected and can stay to have those benefits of growth and sleep as well. So I recommend same room sleep. You know, as long as that works for a family, if they can do it for the three years, that's wonderful, and sometimes beyond as well. And then treating stress at night the same as we treat it during the day. Baby wakes up crying, you know, needing help, needing, you know, comfort, providing that for them Right and sometimes it's literally just your body, I mean, most of the time even.
Speaker 2:But like my one and a half year old, when I get pregnant I like have to wean them, like I can't, and I think that's biology too. I think that's your body going yo. Why are we trying to keep two humans alive? Like let's live. We're going to make this really sensitive and kind of like. But also, I mean my body does not get a period until I night wean. So I have to like intentionally night wean to, which I know goes against everything. We're on a family planning mission but like I think it's all. I mean, it is all you know. Your body's like okay, if we're going to sleep together, if we're going to breastfeed. Still, if we're going to nurse through the night, we're not going to let you get fertile yeah, to have another one. And then when I mess with the cycle because I remember being like I did this to myself, like I messed with the biology or the evolution of everything, and so then I got pregnant, I was still nursing and I was like I need to stop. This is like the aversion to breastfeeding. I have never felt this before and I felt it with both my girls, cause now I'm pregnant again and then it's your body going. We can't what. What? Like we're trying to grow a human and grow a human Like let's just do one at a time here. All right, guys, we're going to take a brief break to talk about our arrow.
Speaker 2:Arrow is a phone charging box that's attached to an app that tracks the amount of time that you're physically away from your phone. It gamifies it, so you get streaks. You've done five days where you put your phone in your box. At least once You've done three hours away from your phone. I have seen this on Instagram and I thought it would be like a cool thing. It is like, honestly, I don't want to say life changing, cause I mean I like that so cliche, but I want to put my phone in the box during the day and I really do get excited when I'm like I just clocked an hour. Or every morning now it's an hour before we go to preschool and I've noticed that my anxiety is down. I've noticed that I'm like way more present with my kids, so their tantrums are down. I've noticed that they have less screen time, I've just noticed. So we get outside more, we play more games, like you can absolutely do this. Just put your phone away.
Speaker 2:But this box you have to pay for the app. So like that monetary investment kind of makes you want to do it more, cause she's like, okay, I'm paying for this. If you're not, by the box there's a flip mode where you can just say start recording that I'm not on my phone and you flip it face down and it starts tracking that time. So if you're like at dinner with your spouse or you're at gymnastics, I really am loving this and if you know me, you know that I'm always trying to get off my phone personally, like, yeah, screen time for the kids, but like screen time for me is something that I've been working on for a while. So if this is also something you're trying to work on, go to hayshaylacom slash r? Oa r o pod, p o d r o pod and you can use hayshayla as a discount.
Speaker 2:Let's get back to the show. I wanted a half year old to still waking up at the night consistently we are co sleeping still but like last night she started crying. She wasn't super upset, but it was just kind of like a ah, where are you? Like I'm going to sit here and just kind of yell for you, and as soon as I laid down with her, she fell asleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it that she just needed me. And, like I, I interviewed someone about co sleeping specifically and she's like how easy is it when they're right next to you to just like, yeah. And she's like, when you go from your horizontal head to your vertical head, like sitting up, that wakes you up more, that creates more stress for you. If you can just stay horizontal, pull your baby in, you could stay sleeping.
Speaker 1:Keep your sleep cycle synced Like it's just yeah, I mean every animal on the entire mammal will say on the entire planet. Does that? Like there's no reason why humans are from it, like it's that's how animals take care of babies? Yeah, oh that's just.
Speaker 1:And some of the like things that are put. Usually it's mom, like who's taking care of a baby at night. So I think it's like a feminist issue, like the you know the that task put on usually mom. Sometimes it's not mom, but usually mom to be waking up, walking down a hall how helping the baby fall back asleep somehow, lowering them back down into a crib, getting back into bed falling back and repeating that through the night.
Speaker 1:Of course that sounds sustainable. Right, drive someone crazy. Of course they're going to use something like sleep training because they have to. That's the only alternative. Okay, that's possible, right, right. So, yeah, bringing. I have a lot of parents to move from that to bringing their babies closer, whether that means Side crib, side crib, exactly crib right next to the bed, or that for that exact reason, if your feet don't touch the floor, I like that. I always say feet touching the floor, but I like that like head rising thing to do, the better, you might not even notice.
Speaker 1:No right, it might just be like a really really yes, cause that was the question.
Speaker 2:Like oh, how often here's your baby wake up during the night. I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 1:She does.
Speaker 2:She absolutely does, but I couldn't tell you how many times, because I just wake up, pull it, Cause the sleep cycles right, Like you go into REM together and you go into light sleep together and so you both are in like light sleep so you can pull them in and then go right back into the like yeah, but I understand, like cause, even like you don't want to, obviously don't want to roll over on your baby, like so that's such a huge fear. And then you have all your parents and aunties and everyone being like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that campaign has been out for a long time and it's not based on the data either. So you know, the biggest risk actually is having a baby being covered by a blanket or a soft pillow or the bed being too soft. Okay, so the the rolling over, you know it's happened in some instances and it is something else we have to also protect against, but it's not even the biggest risk. So that's even whatever you know here like. But you know, when we do look at babies who do have, you know, infant death, like SIDS or accidental suffocation in sleep there's, you know, if it's in a bed sharing setup, like sleeping side by side in a bed, there's always a risk factor, like there's, almost like it's there's either alcohol involved, soft bedding, pillows, a gap, you know.
Speaker 1:So we, you know I always say it's important to say whenever we talk about bed sharing or co-sleeping is adult beds are not safe for babies. That's really important baseline. They're not safe for them. You can't just bring your baby into your bed, right, don't do that, got it? Follow very strict guidelines to make your bed safe for a baby and it has to be really understood by both parents if there's two parents and maintained like seriously maintained, and that's La Leche.
Speaker 2:has like the seven sleep things.
Speaker 1:La Leche is really yeah.
Speaker 2:So if somebody's like, okay, how do I do it, that's what you're going to look up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I on my website. I have a collection of La Leche. James McCann's website has resources. Unicef has resource. There's a couple others. I have them all on my website so people can go there, and I also really like co-sleepy's resources. I worked on those a little bit with Tiffany, edited them, and so she's got really great resources for people too. Because, it is. Safety is so important with this.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:It's not like oh, what a.
Speaker 2:It's it is serious. I should probably talk about that more when I talk about co-sleepy, because I'm just like this is the greatest thing ever, and you're right, you don't want somebody to just pull there. It'd be like, okay, great. Shayla says that this is how I'm going to get more sleep, cause I've also heard that babies can like an. Overheating is a really big cause of SIDS too, where, like, the blankets are too high and they're just like hot, or the pillows don't let their head.
Speaker 1:We don't want any blankets near them, any pillows near them. We want them just in one layer of clothing. No long hair, Like we want our hair we have long hair and no cords around Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all that kind of stuff, yeah. So do a little research before you just hop into it, because she'll recommend it co-sleeping it's also a good reminder for me.
Speaker 1:Some people are just not comfortable with it, and that's totally fine. Having a baby sleep right next to you on their own surface is also really, really wonderful, and some of the safety guidelines actually preclude some groups of people from bed sharing. Yes, that's okay, too right, there's other ways around it. You can still sleep close. You can still get those benefits as well. And some people are just they're like I'm never doing that, I just I'm too scared, I just no, never gonna happen. I still want those people to have the resources because we know like reported 60 or 70% of families will bring their baby into bed at some point out of exhaustion or something like that, and so I want people all parents, regardless, if they're like my baby's in a crib in their own room we're sleep training them at three months based on what they know, because those families still bring their babies into bed.
Speaker 2:I would want them to sleep in bed Totally. Yeah, that makes sense, but again, I love that you're like I think that you should sleep close to your baby, I think that you should respond to your baby, but that's not gonna work for everybody, and like that's just what I like about the whole everything that you do. You're like this is what I know, but it doesn't always work and that's okay, and you're not neglecting your child and there's other ways to connect and there's other ways to still get that benefit without doing certain specific things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what this is. I talk about in the book and all my work. Like we're all coming from very low nurture. Most of us have been a product of all these like prescriptive baby books and like so many systems that separate moms and babies starting in the womb. For a lot of people, like they're already, like don't you hold your baby too much, like don't even think of, like you know it's already starting, and the spoiling, the manipulating, like all this stuff is out there, like super influential even for us, like crunchy or moms right, like it's those voices are still there, because they're so prevalent right Because you don't wanna do the wrong thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah, 100%. So we're all coming from low nurture. If we, as moms, this like new generation of moms and dads, if we can just be 10% more nurturing, if we can be 20%, we have just be yeah, to move the needle within our comfort, like that is all positive, like all positive direction.
Speaker 2:I love, love, love, love. That, yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, and sometimes I wonder too like, am I over nurturing because I am trying to make up for it, right, you know what I mean? Like, am I doing too much because I'm compensating? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've asked myself the same question, I think, in terms of like nurture, of like the you know presence and empathy and stress and all this kind of stuff. As long as you check yourself that you are responding to something and you know your baby's communication and your baby's needs, you're not. I think what is over nurturing? I think over nurturing is some of the ways that these kinds of parenting styles get criticized, where people are intensive, where they are hovering over their baby constantly, not giving them time and space to explore and learn and fall down and you know all that stuff where we're like bold, like it's called, like bulldozer parenting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like you know, never letting them fail, never letting them try the puzzle, never letting them, you know, do what we're like. We have to do everything for you so you don't ever experience stress Like this kind of stuff. This is not about preventing confronting physical or emotional stress. We just that doesn't have to our relationship with them. We don't want that to be a source of it.
Speaker 2:Right, we want them to try things and then we can be their help when they fail.
Speaker 1:Basically, yeah, because studies actually show when young ones develop with no stress, their stress system when they grow up is also negatively affected. They have to experience stress. It's not about preventing it, it's about supporting it. Okay, and so I think maybe over nurturing that could be there. It could also be in the permissive kind of parenting where we're not providing healthy boundaries for respecting other people in ourselves social boundaries, right Social expectations where we're just sort of like whatever my kid does, they do, right Like, and not teaching them you know, those kinds of things that are.
Speaker 1:Every family's gonna have different values, but that's important in parenting as well. Right, we have to be in charge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, firm, but kind is something that I've heard that sticks with me. Yeah. I think, that's what I'm saying. Okay, so, along the lines of like feeling over nurturing, do you ever find that there's like a major parental preference? Because, well, I guess, unless both parents, okay, yes, yes, because of the nurturing, or just because of that. That's the nature of parenting.
Speaker 1:I think it's the nature of it, I think it's part of development. I do need to look more into the science of it, but uh-huh, yeah, it's primary parent. It's not always mom Like it's like, because mom's primary almost, you know, in many cases is primary parent and if mom's breastfeeding like that's, that is the primary place of like like breastfeeding is like the most comfort, like it's instinctive for everything.
Speaker 1:Instinctful regulation, everything. So of course that's. It's like oh, I want that right away, right, like of course. But also it's primary parent. So I've also worked with parents where dad's primary and they become preferred right. If dad's spending, you know, taking the paternity leave right, he's the primary go-to person for all of the children, then it could become dad, and also for parents who have two dads or two moms, it's probably primary.
Speaker 2:Right Interesting.
Speaker 1:But it is real. And then I also would always say, like in those days when I was primary, you know, my husband was like well, what am I? Doing I'm like who are we doing? I always want to help. Dads and partners feel important they are also. I mean, you're feeding me, which is making milk and feeding our child. You're, you know, doing, you know everything to help me which is helping the baby right? It's like it's in the middle, then mom or primary person and then the other like dad or the other right, and so it's is so much.
Speaker 1:And I've always said to him like you will have your day, trust me, like, and now it's, now it's, it's totally. I mean it's both of us. But like, my second sweet phase is where he is so dad and to dad. Yeah, and I think some moms get sad when that happens, but I'm like lying back, I'm like. I've been with him for three years. This is my time to like have a coffee alone.
Speaker 2:Totally definitely, cause it's so intense. Yeah, that's, and I my husband had a hard time bonding with our first and he felt bad about it, cause, like it would, he couldn't comfort her, cause she wanted to nurse or she wanted like she just wanted my body essentially. And he's like okay, and I was like this happened with our first as well. Like it's, and now it's like okay. As soon as we weaned she was like, okay, who else is here? Hey dad? And now it's like they have this great bond.
Speaker 2:But part of me is like I want, well, I guess I'm wondering, like with our third, I guess this personal question, but like I'm like I'd never tried to give them. I tried to give them bottles. They didn't really take it and I was like, okay, fine, then I don't have to pump. This feels easier for me. But then you really become the person that needs to take care of them. Like your, you can't be gone for more than three hours. There's like a lot. And I'm like my older two are so excited about this baby and I'm like I kind of want to pump so that they can be some of the nurturing with the bottles and dad can do that and it can kind of be more of like a community baby, instead of just like mom's going to go in the other room and nurse again, mom's going to go do this and like I'm happy to do it again, but I just feel like the other ones will also benefit. Is that that's?
Speaker 1:considered a nurture. It can be for some people. I also will say I also come in from a place of hating pumping, like it was just you know but but like having some of that in there there's nothing wrong with it and anyway it can do that. But there's other things that can too Right, like after nursing baby can go sleep on on someone too Right. I used to have my husband like have baths with my son.
Speaker 1:Like he was born and they always had the bath Like that was their time, and you know and your time, yeah, and my time, yeah, having those you know other moment like I would sleep in and like you would have, like I would feed my son and then hand him off and sleep in and yeah. The farmer's market or, like you know, other things like that, like it can be a lot of different things and it can also be pumping and bottles, but it doesn't have to be that.
Speaker 2:Got it yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're going to maintain breastfeeding, you still have to be feeding baby a lot. Yeah, right, yeah, I don't know, I think I mean breastfeeding has. So I mean you're going to be breastfeeding anyway if you're pumping, but it really does have so many benefits, like the like actually removing milk from the breast for the baby. It shapes their oral development.
Speaker 1:It shapes, you know their breathing, you know because of that, and their immune system. They're not giving you their germs when you're pumping, right, when there's that whole exchange, right, um, so yeah, I mean like, mix it up and see how it goes, Right, see how you feel, right. If you're like I like this, great. If you're like a hate pumping, you don't have to do it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a good point.
Speaker 1:Well, a lot of times people like for people listening. A lot of times people will make it all hinge on the feeding and be like my partner has to give bottles, or like they're not going to bond with the baby yeah. It's like you can create other times. It is like bed and settled and like the partner can.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I told my husband this time was like, because my second lived in the carrier. She knocked in the carrier, she nursed in the carrier, she just lived there because mom was hands free. So I was happy. Baby was attached to mom, so baby was happy, toddler was happy because I could make eye contact with her and the baby kind of disappeared because she's attached to me. So it made everyone happy and I was like sometimes I felt bad, I'm like I'm not like on the floor playing with this child, but she's attached to me 24, seven, looking at everything that I'm doing, and so this is a different experience for her, but I think it's just as valuable in different ways. Oh yeah, because she's just on me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I told my husband this time I'm like you are going to wear this baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And just on walks they can be with you, and so I did that with my husband too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd make sure he had a carrier that fit him Right, because they don't all fit everybody. Yeah, they don't fit to invest in that. Totally Every hike, nearly every hike. My husband would have him and yeah, that was a good part too. Totally Okay.
Speaker 2:So if somebody wants to work with you, I mentioned your website and your Instagram in my intro and the book, obviously, but you also offer one on one, coaching kind of I want and I want to hear more about this workshop because I might need it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Sure. So one on one coaching. I offer sleep troubleshooting right. If people come to me all different times but if they do feel a baby is waking hourly or really really, really, really frequently, or if they're having these like long periods of like an hour or two of being awake in the middle of the night, usually we can work together and help with that. I'll just do sleep education sometimes in those, but my workshop is kind of that as well. And then people who want to do transitions, like night weaning, moving baby to a different sleep place, bringing dad or partner in to help baby fall asleep Like we can do that in a gentle way. Some people are like that. Yeah, those are the kind of the big ones I think that I usually help with. I also do like one on one to just coach parents like around their goals with nurturing their baby, helping them figure things out, helping them transition to daycare or having a nanny or caregiver.
Speaker 2:You know, come in and just see how the parenting, mothering experience, which is so amazing because you need someone in your corner who can validate these things, like that was what your book was for me. But even some of the things you're mentioning, you're like, okay, yeah, that would have been so nice to have somebody with like a science background and real world knowledge, being like, okay, yeah, this is what you're doing for your baby by the things that you're doing, so good job. But also we can tweak them like this and this and continue nurture based and it's going to help.
Speaker 1:One of the biggest things I always wish I would have given myself when I had my baby was if I could go back in time. I would say, like take way more time for yourself, like nourish yourself. I did get so depleted. I had help Like I had a nanny starting around eight months, but I would go straight to my computer like the second she came home. I'd be like work, work, work, work, work, and then she'd leave and then it was back full on. You know mothering right, and I would say, add in an extra hour to that, and that time is for you every single time so needed. So I really like to help parents with that as well. Right, get some of that for themselves.
Speaker 2:You are speaking to me directly. That's what I tell them. I'm like I'm either working or I'm parenting. There's no like anything else. But I feel like yeah, it's so normally, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's good, and you can do it with or without paid help, right? You can have family give you that time. It can be one hour on a Saturday, it can be, or an evening, you know it can be any time. But if you, even like psychologically, know I have that time, then what am I going to do? Totally, that's truly going to make fill me up.
Speaker 2:Yes and I have that because I also feel like you can find pockets of your day, Like, as my kids are getting older, I feel like sometimes the benefit of them watching a show for 45 minutes as much as I'm like can just transform me and I can just replete my patience, my calm, my everything and then be like all right, guys, what do we have? What do we have for dinner tonight? And just like yeah.
Speaker 1:But, I think that everyone can do is like teach us everywhere I go Two minutes a day, like two minutes throughout your day, or even one minute throughout your day. Close your eyes and direct your attention, like our attention's always at the outside world, at our kids, everything. Direct your attention inside, just like breathe and feel from head to toe for like one minute or two minutes, I swear, even just doing that for two seconds.
Speaker 2:Yeah World right now.
Speaker 1:It's a total reset and really helps with stress and feeling good.
Speaker 2:This is what this is, why you're so great. I'm going to repeat it over and over I hope you get out this podcast, feel great about yourself, but, like, honestly, you're like, ok, make sure you pay an extra hour. And then you're like but if you can't do that, give yourself one minute to just like chill and that's right. Like yeah, because otherwise you just keep, keep, keep, keeping and you just keep building. Yeah, I love that. Awesome. Yeah, thank you for being on and chatting with me about all this. It's been so, so good.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. You're sharing everything. It was so nice to meet you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great to meet you too. All right, thank you guys so much for listening. If you enjoyed it, please share with somebody you think would love, and I would be so honored if you would subscribe to the podcast and leave a comment and rating below so I can know what you guys are digging, what you want more of, just connect with you a little better. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.